Curse

Bobby2 · Feb 09, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehshadowninjar

Because I used to use Shadow Refuge or my main heals during combat.

Why in heaven's name would you stand in melee range casting a 1s self-heal when you should either
- keep on killing -
or
- gtfo -
?

DDL · Feb 09, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

....because "unless you heal you won't kill anything/won't escape before you die"?

That's basically when I use it, and it's pretty helpful usually.

I mean, it's no good you continuing to pound on people if you'll die in a few seconds anyway, and it's no good running if you're simply going to be caught and killed in a few seconds anyway either. If you can keep yourself in the fight for a little while longer, long enough to kill everything attacking you, you win. Right?

Admittedly, I mostly use it for solo stuff when there IS no monk to bail you out, and monsters will always, always chase you over anyone else..because there IS noone else...but for those purposes it's mighty handy.

ensoriki · Feb 09, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

SR can't really be used well when your in danger.
in the 6 seconds it took for you to activate that heal boost, thats 6 seconds they can whack on you and +6-8 regen is not going to save you.

To get the best use you have to take it before you take damage, and that doesn't even work well because its 1 second cast.

I wouldn't mind 4 sec duration if it was 1/4.

But the heal is still silly its a delayed heal, delayed heals should not be weak.

DDL · Feb 09, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

It's not so much a "use when already in trouble", as a "oop, this is going to get nasty" kinda heal.

If you're already into a +8 regen with a heal spike at the end by the time it DOES get nasty, you're laughing, and with an 8 sec recharge, you can usually afford to be overcautious, and spam it fairly often. One pip of regen is two HP per sec, right? So losing 2 seconds of +8 is...32 points of health, which is quite a lot when you consider how often you CAN spam SR.

Bobby2 · Feb 09, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

I mean, it's no good you continuing to pound on people if you'll die in a few seconds anyway,

That's what I meant by 'gtfo'

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

and it's no good running if you're simply going to be caught and killed in a few seconds anyway either.

Then don't get caught. If you do, SR won't save you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

If you can keep yourself in the fight for a little while longer, long enough to kill everything attacking you, you win. Right?

Thank ANet for Monks, who actually have decent skills for keeping people on their feet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Admittedly, I mostly use it for solo stuff when there IS no monk to bail you out, and monsters will always, always chase you over anyone else..because there IS noone else...but for those purposes it's mighty handy.

Better substitutes:

Dash - deaggro means no need for heal
SSpeed - same goes
Feigned - might actually see you through

DDL · Feb 09, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Then don't get caught. If you do, SR won't save you.

Right, and the best way of not getting caught is to kill everyone who could catch you. In HM in particular, running away is often pretty foolhardy: they're faster than you and meaner than you. And in numbers, so siphon speed won't help you as much as you'd like.

Running away safely (which dash is, admittedly, very handy for) is less useful if it means all your foes will be at max health again by the time you are too.

Ideally, you'd either be killing everyone before you're at risk, or running away to safety before you're at risk. In PvP, this is certainly the ideal to aim for.

In PvE, however, there is frequently a middle ground, where you're killing people...while at risk. If you CAN kill them, but not without a heal, then SR is handy. It shifts the risk balance greatly in your favour, basically.

Ultimately, if you're in a situation where running gets you back to square one, and staying without healing gets you dead...I'll go for the heal anyday.

I'm not saying SR is the be-all and end-all of sin heals: far from it. But it certainly HAS uses, as far as I'm concerned. They may be esoteric, for sure, but they're still uses.

ensoriki · Feb 10, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Right, and the best way of not getting caught is to kill everyone who could catch you. In HM in particular, running away is often pretty foolhardy: they're faster than you and meaner than you. And in numbers, so siphon speed won't help you as much as you'd like.

Dash beats Every monster in HA without a IMS (although I think graspings can surpass) Use Dash and they'll all lose aggro, some take longer then others tho.

Quote:

Running away safely (which dash is, admittedly, very handy for) is less useful if it means all your foes will be at max health again by the time you are too.

If your depending on using SR to save you from a mob, your going to die and again DP, atleast with Dash you may not get DP.

Quote:

Ultimately, if you're in a situation where running gets you back to square one, and staying without healing gets you dead...I'll go for the heal anyday.

Square one means your still alive and you can try again, and hopefully you've learned from your mistakes.
Bad healing doesn't keep you alive generally.
Thats why people don't use rank 1 healing prayers to keep people alive.

Quote:

I'm not saying SR is the be-all and end-all of sin heals: far from it. But it certainly HAS uses, as far as I'm concerned. They may be esoteric, for sure, but they're still uses.

Every skill has a "use" doesn't mean there good. Sure it has a use, but when it fails to be good at its use, it's bad.

Terraban · Feb 10, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

3. Works great with an AoD build that I use and won't tell.

lol....it either sucks, or it has been overdone before. Not "telling" is just pointless.

As for Shadow Refuge...it needs a rework more than anything else, along with a lot of Shadow Arts skills in general.

DDL · Feb 10, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Every skill has a "use" doesn't mean there good. Sure it has a use, but when it fails to be good at its use, it's bad.

Not quite the right interpretation: "use" in this context means "a place it can be used, and be successful". A place where it fails to be good at its use is....not a place it should be used.

And after all, I'm not technically saying it IS amazingly good (which anyway depends on your definition of good), I'm simply saying it's NOT trash. Wastrels collapse? Oh, that's trash. I can think of basically no builds where that would be worth the skill slot. But SR: I CAN think of builds. Admittedly, my build choice would be limited by lack of Nightfall and EOTN, which I don't have, but this is actually a fairly relevant concern: not everyone HAS access to things like restful breeze and mystic regen, so for those people, SR does actually fit a fairly nifty niche.

And besides, you seem to think that relying on SR to save you from death means you'll still die..when I'm fairly certain that's not the case. It's saved my ass countless times, so I guess it's a case of knowing when to use it: I'll give you credit for sin experience (god knows I'm relatively new in GW terms) and assume that you either have access to better heals, or use a build more based around other heals: so possibly for you the usual setup SR is inferior, but for me, it's better than any other available options, and it works.

Biostem · Feb 10, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

They should get rid of the condition on the heal at the end, and make it 1/2 second cast. Done.

Am I A Good Sin · Feb 10, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

lol....it either sucks, or it has been overdone before. Not "telling" is just pointless.

As for Shadow Refuge...it needs a rework more than anything else, along with a lot of Shadow Arts skills in general.

Figures there's gotta be some1 I don't like here. U quoted only part of what I said about the build. I said if ur interested msg me and I'll give u the build. That's 1 of my arguements back at u. The second is that a build that's good gets posted on wiki then everyone starts using it then Anet nerfs it. If u don't realize this then u have either:
A: no common sense
B: been living under a rock waiting for GW to update from nerfs.
C: or r just a plain noob.
I support originality not popular builds like the old SP sin.
Now I will admit that ur only halfright on the been done before part. After all, all builds have been done before or the concept of the builds anyways so all builds are most likely based off another one.
Done talking now

Accursed · Feb 10, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I quit my assassin because I found the assassio profession was to easy for me to play, but since they nerfed [skill]Shadow Refuge[/skill] I may make a new assassin.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 10, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blizzard.

I quit my assassin because I found the assassio profession was to easy for me to play, but since they nerfed [skill]Shadow Refuge[/skill] I may make a new assassin.

I don't see how nerfing a still-crap self-heal changes how the assassin handles.
It's still a one-dimensional class, and requires a massive overhaul to be anything more.

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Admittedly, my build choice would be limited by lack of Nightfall and EOTN, which I don't have, but this is actually a fairly relevant concern: not everyone HAS access to things like restful breeze and mystic regen, so for those people, SR does actually fit a fairly nifty niche

Well that explains a lot. SR being like, the only regen spell available to you, you'll have to experience Restful Breeze first to fully realize the utter crapness of SR.

Alex: way to troll. There are other threads for that.

ensoriki · Feb 10, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Well that explains a lot. SR being like, the only regen spell available to you, you'll have to experience Restful Breeze first to fully realize the utter crapness of SR.

Healing Breeze is good enough now to make you see how bad it is.

Heart of Shadow is a better on demand heal.
Troll unguent
Healing signet (lulz)

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 11, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Am I the only one who particularly liked Shadow Refuge?

Problem is people don't know when to use it, and in what builds to use it in. It's common sense if your going /mo secondary (or even A/A) to take Restful Breeze. Most Assassin Self heals are primarily used to either GTFO, or to quickly heal to move on to another target. Shadow Refuge is the only real skill that excells at making the assassin durable while they are attacking, which is why people don't like it. An assassin should be doing just that. Assassinating. Shadow Refuge only hinders that ability.. Esspecually with a 1 second cast time.

However in split builds that are mostly used in PvE (Critical sword/axe, whatever), where focusing on one target may not be the best objective (in most cases anyway), Shadow Refuge is really good.

To put things in a simplistic manor, Shadow Refuge is a very good skill that could be better used on anything BUT an assassin. It could possibly use a 1/4 cast time, but you can't buff it too much. Assassins are reletively squishy for a reason.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 11, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Its always sucked.

I never liked it even with the whole 6 second lasting time.
the only use i have ever found for it was temp degen relief.

but for self heal as an oh shit button feigned and restful have served me much better

SR is never going to save you in combat.

Div · Feb 11, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Shadow refuge always sucked. If anything, the shorter duration and more health increase at the end was a buff, since I want the big heal to come sooner if I'm in the middle of combat. I could careless about the 2 seconds of regen, really.

fireflyry · Feb 13, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Am I the only one who particularly liked Shadow Refuge?

Nah man, I liked it pre-nerf and used it in quite a few builds for protting hence why I started the thread as it seemed in no way over-powered or imba and allowed me a certain freedom in not relying on a secondary for a good self-heal or mitigation in PvP.

Just gets annoying when you adjust and adapt to an update to only see a skill switched back to useless a few months later.